George Carney - he's no genius

[dvsgryhnd]

Well, I don't bring it up to justify anything. Abuse is abuse, no matter where it occurs. The message I seem to get from AR posts is that racing should end because of the inherent abuse in it. Well, I see at least 10 dogs put down each day at the shelter I work at. Some from abuse, neglect or just no room. So if racing should end because of abuse, should pet ownership also end because of abuse? Maybe I'm just not getting the difference. But the 3,000 Rhodes killed over a 40 year span has nothing on the 90,000 done at this shelter in 30yrs. Except they died humanely. Well, since it has been pointed out this is a greyhound board, I think we might be fighting different battles, so I won't bother you with it anymore.

[dad2paisley]

I also mentioned about all the other animals being abused and put down etc. I think there are fewer incidents now for greyhounds. It seems like the same incidents are being mentioned over and over again. I am nuetral about gh racing but I don't want it to end. If racing ends, what will become of all those dogs. We may have a worse problem on our hands then. JMO

[hounddog]

They are two different battles. The general pet population abuse is a problem so vast that we may never see a solution to it. Abuse in the greyhound racing industry occurs within a defined universe and if there was ever a chance to eliminate the mistreatment of an animal, this should be it.

The original post raised the question about the PR argument that abuse doesn't happen because of the financial investment made in the dogs. I argue that this is exactly the reason for abuse from those in the industry that are not committed to the long term welfare of every dog. Dogs are not cared for and eventually face death, if not productive, merely as a business decision.

[dad2paisley]

Good point. Thanks for bringing the discussion back on target.

[robinw]

admin said:

I also mentioned about all the other animals being abused and put down etc. I think there are fewer incidents now for greyhounds. It seems like the same incidents are being mentioned over and over again. I am nuetral about gh racing but I don't want it to end. If racing ends, what will become of all those dogs. We may have a worse problem on our hands then. JMO

I agree that there are fewer incidents including greyhounds (I hope LOL) and every time an animal is discarded it is one more strike against us as a society. But remember, there are lots of reasons to dislike greyhound racing and the glut of dogs that need adoption. Personally, it isn't the act of racing itself that bothers me nearly as much as the lack of accountability for retiring hounds. Through regulation, maybe life after racing can be controlled through increased accountability.

[oldjay]

So if racing should end because of abuse, should pet ownership also end because of abuse? Maybe I'm just not getting the difference. But the 3,000 Rhodes killed over a 40 year span has nothing on the 90,000 done at this shelter in 30yrs.

Maybe I can shed a different light on this one. Two points actually.

First, when you take one breed of one species and compare it to the rest of the animals combined, it is always going to come out less. Even if 100% of all greyhounds were put down, it would still be less than all the other pets. If you compare the number of labradors put down, they would be less. German shepards would be less, etc., etc. It's not even apples to oranges but apples to fruit instead. It makes no sense.

Secondly, "pet ownership" is not a business. It's a fact of life. People own pets and they always will. It's impossible to ban, end or do away with it. Similarly, if Texaco started making crappy gasoline that ruined your engine, you would have every right to buy another brand and to tell your friends to do the same. Texaco could go out of business if enough people found out and thousands of employees would be out of work. But I doubt they would point to all the other gas related engine problems throughout the history of time, arguing that if Texaco goes, then why not end car ownership all together so no one's engine gets ruined. It would make about as much sense as ending pet ownership.

If I was a Texaco employee, I would get tired of people complaining to me about the company's shortcommings though. Especially if I was trying to do things the right way. #4_1_7#

Jay

[jettcricket]

oldjay said:

So if racing should end because of abuse, should pet ownership also end because of abuse? Maybe I'm just not getting the difference. But the 3,000 Rhodes killed over a 40 year span has nothing on the 90,000 done at this shelter in 30yrs.

Maybe I can shed a different light on this one. Two points actually.

First, when you take one breed of one species and compare it to the rest of the animals combined, it is always going to come out less. Even if 100% of all greyhounds were put down, it would still be less than all the other pets. If you compare the number of labradors put down, they would be less. German shepards would be less, etc., etc. It's not even apples to oranges but apples to fruit instead. It makes no sense.

Secondly, "pet ownership" is not a business. It's a fact of life. People own pets and they always will. It's impossible to ban, end or do away with it. Similarly, if Texaco started making crappy gasoline that ruined your engine, you would have every right to buy another brand and to tell your friends to do the same. Texaco could go out of business if enough people found out and thousands of employees would be out of work. But I doubt they would point to all the other gas related engine problems throughout the history of time, arguing that if Texaco goes, then why not end car ownership all together so no one's engine gets ruined. It would make about as much sense as ending pet ownership.

If I was a Texaco employee, I would get tired of people complaining to me about the company's shortcommings though. Especially if I was trying to do things the right way. #4_1_7#

Jay

.....Very well put. Good analogy. Thank you Jay.

[hounddog]

The greyhound racing industry suffers from a huge leadership void. It is a shame that the handful of spokespeople that are most often heard from spend most of their time writing about their critics and claiming that they are "oppressed" and unfairly attacked. Or they will throw out a lame argument like the one starting this thread.

It should not come as a news flash to anyone that most of our lives have been shaped in some way by activists and advocacy groups. There are animal rights groups, human rights groups, environmental, consumer, political etc. etc.

IMO these watchdog groups do far more good than harm. Over the years those who have been a constant thorn in the side of others have helped make our roads safer, the environment cleaner, food nutrition is better, we are better informed about the products we buy and workers in general work for a higher wage and in safer environs, to name a few.

Instead of pointing fingers and waiting for the bad apples to die off, the industry may prolong it's existence if they would accept the fact that they are not the only group to ever come under scrutiny and just address the issues and fix them.

[luvahound]

I am PR. I have adopted 5 greyhounds that we raised or bought from other people in the racing industry. I work on a greyhound farm and love it. Myself and the others that I work with give everything we have to our dogs. I hate hearing y'all blame us for all the bad things that happen. AR people abuse these wonderful dogs that supposedly they are rescuing, like leaving them out in the heat with no shade or water while they protest. Get real!!!

There are bad people in every business all over the world. But those of us who put our dogs before anything else are always the ones that have to take the downfall for them. Have all of you ever been to watch these athletes run?? They live for it. They get so excited. This is what they were bred for. My boss is currently working on several of the tracks in the U.S. to try and make them safer so that these greyhounds will be able to run as long as they want to.
And those who say that we don't feed them enough....Their body is not made to hold a bunch of weight like a lab can. They have always been a sleek ans slender breed.
I know there are those bad guys in the racing industry that abuse their dogs, but yall make it out like all of us do. AR people post it anywhere they can and even make up things to go against us. The bad people are what we need to get rid of. Not the entire racing industry. The greyhound breed would extremely suffer if they weren't able to run anymore.
I apologize to any of you that I may have offended. But you always need to hear both sides of the story before you make your mind up on whose side you are taking. I am trying to turn yall PR, but atleast find out the facts before you go hanging us.

[robinw]

wow, you generalize even more than we do :). your boss sounds like a good guy, and you sound like you're very dedicated to greyhounds.

different people have different reasons for not liking racing. some may not like the racing itself, some may not like gambling, some (like me) don't like the fact that these dogs are bred to make money, yet others (such as adoption groups) have to pick up the costs associated with adoption and retirement. Additionally, there are concerns about the number of dogs that aren't adopted out, and their fates.
Welcome to this board! it is good to read about your experiences and views.

[hounddog]

luvahound said:

I know there are those bad guys in the racing industry that abuse their dogs, but yall make it out like all of us do.
I apologize to any of you that I may have offended. But you always need to hear both sides of the story before you make your mind up on whose side you are taking. I am trying to turn yall PR, but atleast find out the facts before you go hanging us.

Welcome to the board and thanks for posting.
I can't speak for everyone else but you won't offend me with anything you post.
There are bad guys in racing and I know there are plenty of goods ones also. I try to make it a point to say that in most of my posts.
Since the people involved in the sport are in the best position to get rid of the bad guys it would be nice if the good people would band together and force them out. Most everyone admits that there are still people who mistreat the dogs in the business. I wish there was an organized effort to get rid of them now.

[brockgusdad]

luvahound said:

I am PR... AR people abuse these wonderful dogs that supposedly they are rescuing, like leaving them out in the heat with no shade or water while they protest. Get real!!!


I apologize to any of you that I may have offended. But you always need to hear both sides of the story before you make your mind up on whose side you are taking. I am trying to turn yall PR, but atleast find out the facts before you go hanging us.

Welcome! I am AR and, I am very real; I have issues with anyone who abuses the greys, regardless of where they fall on the issue.

I have heard and debated all the issues. I doubt that you are going to make any converts. Once you convince me that those who profit from the greys will guarantee their sustenance until their final day, you are speaking to deaf ears.

Now, you get real!

[oldjay]

Luvahound> Can you tell us more about what your boss is doing to make the tracks safer?

Thanks!

Jay

[hounddog]

hounddog said:

dvsgryhnd said:

"In a strictly regulated, state-run gaming enterprise like greyhound racing, it is simply unreasonable to think that the same people who spend hundreds of thousands, and even millions of dollars on the breeding, raising and acquisition of Racing Greyhounds, would deliberately or ignorantly subject them to the mythological abuses, or risks, such as those alleged in the literature and in the press releases of politically motivated hate-groups like Grey2K."

"It simply defies logic, as it defies financial feasibility, or more simply, fiscal sanity"

Here is an example of why I think this argument makes no sense and that plenty of dogs fall through the cracks and can be subject to abuse or worse.. I hope those of you in the business can shed some light on it.
On most all the racing sites there are banners advertising to the public that they can own a racer and become part of the sport. Theorhetically, I can reply to one of the multitude of ads and arrange to buy a pup or even a track ready dog. I can even, for a price, let them do the training, kennel lease etc. and I really don't have to do anything but pay my bills. I may never lay eyes on the dog. Where is my accountability? What mandated obligation do I have towards that dog other than to pay the expenses related to racing him? What's to prevent me after spending and losing enough of my hard earned money with no results, or even if the dog was successful and has come to the end of it's career, from telling the custodian to just get rid of it? As the owner do I have the ultimate call on that?

I know there are responsible kennel owners who would work towards preventing that but I assume of the several hundred kennels and 800-1000 breeders out there, there are plenty who wouldn't. Even Gary G of the NGA warns buyers of the unscrupulous people they may encounter.

from The Greyhound Review
For the hobbyist who doesn’t want to spend the time learning the game by reading books and the Review, one way to become a Greyhound owner is through a broker, or others that sell to the general public. Most brokers--someone who sells Greyhounds from pups to track age--generally offer a one-time fee. They operate much like car salesmen or realtors. And just as there are always some used car salesmen willing to let your have a lemon for a the price of a Mercedes, there are some Greyhound brokers who’ll sell slow Greyhounds for the price of an American Derby winner.

“The nature of the business, being a high risk venture, makes it easy for unscrupulous people to take advantage of beginners,” said Gary Guccione, executive director of the NGA. “There is usually no law broken when someone sells a slow dog.”

Another warning from the book Introduction to Greyhounds: “It’s a ‘Buyer Beware’ business, unfortunately, and there are countless ways to get stung, especially if you’re an unsuspecting newcomer eager to get involved.”

If all this sounds gloomy, it was meant to.

The question then becomes for me at least: if these are the kinds of people that you may be dealing with, and me as a buyer who may or may not give two hoots about the retirement needs of my property, doesn't it set up as a potentially lethal combination?

[CampWhippet]

luvahound said:

...you always need to hear both sides of the story before you make your mind up on whose side you are taking. I am trying to turn yall PR, but atleast find out the facts before you go hanging us.

I've not only heard both sides I've seen both sides, which is the reason why I'm AR.

I was once told to meet a few in the business before hanging the entire industry. So I went out and met many racing folks. I am now even MORE AR as a result of the lies, lies, lies and smoke-screen PR puts up.